Catechetics Online From the Forum http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:28:07 +0000 6 Catechist Song http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5984 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgrigf-Ca48&feature=BFa&list=PL288E8BF7C21C576B&lf=plpp_video]]> Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:28:07 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5984 Year Of Faith And Catechesis: What Are You Doing? http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5983
I have heard one parish will call all of their grades together at the end of youth group and pray the Act of Faith together. One of the catechists will then read and make a reflection on an excerpt from Our Sunday Visitor's book Benedict XVI, "The Virtues" 2011. Then all the youth will say recite the Apostles' Creed.]]> Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:42:44 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5983 Games For Catechesis http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5930 Has anyone created, modified, or found fun games in the classroom for teaching the faith? Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:35:57 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5930 Vacation Bible School Ideas http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5982
Thanks!]]> Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:31:32 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5982 The Authority Of The Catechism Of The Catholic Church http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5735 Why do some Catholics believe that they can set aside the teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church with which they disagree?

In the thread about Salvation outside the Church there was a remarkable opinion revealed that if the Catholic Church made an infallible pronouncement in a certain council, a layman felt empowered to interpret that infallible pronouncement against what is taught in the Catechism. For example, in the Salvation outside the Church thread on this debate board, the individual set aside the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Blood taught in the Catechism.

That makes no sense to me. But I've since heard of this error repeated in other forums. (If interested, see the Catholic Community Forum debate section.)

This being a Catechetical board, I think it might be of special interest here. And extremely important that this confusion, if it exists here, be resolved. Here is my stance. As I have been mostly debating about the validity of the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Blood, they are mentioned herein.

A. My logic can be largely summed up in the following logical argument.

1. We all know that the Church is the only infallible interpreter of the Word of God.

2. Tradition is the Word of God.

3. Infallible doctrines are examples of Tradition.

4. The doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Blood are the Catholic Church's interpretation of these Traditions.

The other part of my argument which may have gotten lost in the shuffle, is authority.

B. Who is authorized to interpret those doctrines of the Church? The Layman? Or the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church. When it comes to a decision between the interpretation of a layman or the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church wins every time. Even if it is something which we don't understand.

C. And finally, where did this idea come from that the Catechism of the Catholic Church may be questioned?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church was written with the authority of the Church. It is used to educate New Catholics either recently converted or babes who have grown up in the faith. There is no doctrine of picking and choosing in the Tradition of the Church. The Catechism isn't taught with the qualifier that, "if you agree with the doctrine, feel free to believe it. Otherwise, just set it aside."

No. That would be a recipe for disaster.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church may not be infallible. But it is authoritative. Anyone who denies any of the truths taught in the Catechism is claiming greater authority than the Catholic Church and thus rebelling against the Catholic Church.

This question strikes directly at the heart of the mission of this board, namely, Catechesis.

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria]]> Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:07:53 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5735 Outside The Church There Is No Salvation http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5340
QUOTE
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

QUOTE
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)

QUOTE
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)


I went for years after my (re)conversion thinking that EENS meant what the CCC states. Namely, that everyone who is saved is somehow saved through the Church, even if they are not explicitly members of the Catholic Church (through no fault of their own) (cf. CCC 847). In essence, such an idea boils down to the idea that ignorance saves. That's a problem. So I modified my understanding to think that persons must be members of the Church (i.e., validly baptized) or recipients of so-called "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood" (BOD, BOB), but such phrases are not found in any Papal or Conciliar document and seem to violate defined statements of the Church:
"... no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene IV)
“If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent: Canon 2 of the Canons on Baptism, 7th Session, Sacrament of Baptism)

Thus, I rejected both BOB and BOD. After all, God is Provident, is He not? He is in control. If there's some person in Timbuktu open to the Gospel, God will send him a missionary to preach the Gospel and baptize him. After all, compared to transubstantiation, sending a missionary is a piece of cake as far as miracles go!

I now fully believe that "no salvation outside the Church" means just that. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is the door to the Church and thus necessary for salvation. So-called 'baptism of desire' and 'baptism of blood' are metaphors that cannot impart the sanctifying grace of baptism and deny the Providence and Omnipotence of God.

I am full aware that I am not the first person to reach such a conclusion (a notable priest did several years earlier who died reconciled to the Church WITHOUT recanting his position on EENS).
AND, I am also aware that there are religious groups APPROVED by the Church who hold a strict interpretation of EENS.
The following are their websites:
http://www.abbey.org/
http://www.saintbenedict.com/
http://sistersofstbenedictcenter.org/
They are listed on the religious order page of the Worcester Diocese:
http://www.worcesterdiocese.org/


... and I think this is the problem with the Church today. We've lost the urgency of the need to evangelize because, at heart, we believe that others can be saved outside the Church. The message of the Gospel becomes less urgent, less pressing when ignorance saves instead of Christ in His Sacraments (and it's sooo easy to believe that everyone is ignorant about some point or other) and makes us think twice about evangelizing-- if I tell them, they become responsible for that knowledge and they might choose to reject it, so they are better off in ignorance. But if we hold to a strict interpretation of EENS-- that EENS really means what it says, then evangelization is MOST pressing and MOST necessary, there's no excuse for not participating in the call to evangelize. Ignorance is no excuse, it cannot save. If we recover the true meaning of EENS, it will solve many issues facing the Church today.

And honestly, this position is so FREEING. It don't have to backtrack and "doublethink" anymore. Things mean what they say. Jesus meant what He said. I don't have to run around trying to qualify everything to make excuses and pretend like God can't plan well enough to see to it that those open to the Gospel will have the necessary means of salvation.

1. There is no Salvation outside the Church. Only validly baptized Catholics in a state of grace at death (i.e., free from mortal sin) will be saved.
2. There is no such thing as 'baptism of desire' or 'baptism by blood' (and the Church has never formally taught such phraseology)
3. Persons who die with only the stain of Original Sin on their souls (and no actual sin) will go to limbo, a place of natural happiness and will not suffer the torments of Hell.
4. Validly baptized persons in non-Catholic communities who have not reached the age of reason are Catholic.]]> Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:55:03 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5340 How Communion Is Received http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5751
Yet doesn't it say in the liturgical documents that the bishop determines the norms for receiving Holy Communion and that however the communicant wishes to receive that they cannot be hindered from doing this? So should the priest or extraordinary minister of communion just assume that the person has a medical problem that they are unaware of? Would this then be left to the conscience of the communicant, in that if you don't have a medical reason for receiving on the hand then you are committing a liturgical abuse?

How would a catechist teach catechumens, candidates, and children preparing for their First Communion to receive then?]]> Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:09:56 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5751 Holy Church With Imperfect Members http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5752 Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:46:16 +0000 http://www.catecheticsonline.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5752